I Don’t Accommodate Uncontrolled Men

jakob-owens-235352

It’s summer! Time for all the the ladies to start posting articles about why it’s not a woman’s responsibility to prevent a man from lusting and all the gentlemen to start posting comments about why it’s not a woman’s responsibility, but she sure can help.

I’ve been encouraged to see the pushback, by women, even women in more conservative circles, against the toxic idea that a woman’s clothing choices can cause men to stumble.

But this pushback gets halted when a guy stands up and comfortably announces that while this personal responsibility thing all sounds great, the reality is that normal, healthy guys like him struggle, so women should still cover up. And the ladies go a little silent, unable to argue with this universal battle against sexual temptation that women never face.

The pushback against purity culture dies right then and there, because no woman wants to challenge the idea that men can’t actually control themselves — and that’s a beautiful, God-given part of being a man.

So I’m going to be that woman. I’m going to stand up and look that man in the eye and tell him that his inability to control himself is not normal, healthy, or God-given, and I have no sympathy for his struggles.

Because I don’t. I think more highly of men than that.

My husband didn’t grow up in purity culture. He didn’t grow up hearing that it’s normal and healthy for a guy to struggle with not looking until the offending woman leaves the room. He didn’t grow up hearing he couldn’t control his sexual urges if he caught a glimpse of a woman’s cleavage. He grew up around girls who wore bikinis to the beach and short shorts and tank tops. He grew up being able to look at a woman, notice parts of her body, even formulate a response (like “She’s attractive” or “She’s trying too hard”), and then go on with his conversation with her as if she’s more than her butt and abs.

He doesn’t experience this “all men’s daily battle” regarding women’s clothing choices, because he wasn’t socialized to.

And I think that is a huge thing people are overlooking in this discussion — how much of the “male struggle” can be chalked up not to healthy amounts of testosterone but to socialization?

Even as a female I was socialized to be uncomfortable with women in certain clothing — not because I was sexually attracted to them but because I was taught they were immodest. I would avert my eyes and feel embarrassed and not know how to talk to a woman with cleavage. Now that I’m socialized to be okay with women’s clothing choices, even if they don’t align with mine, I don’t find it awkward at all. They’re just people. They’re just bodies. No need to freak out or be awkward.

I think guys need to learn that it’s fine to notice a woman’s body and find it attractive. Bodies are beautiful. Beautiful bodies elicit responses in everyone. Notice it, and move on with your life. It’s not a sin. It’s not even necessarily sexual. This is how “visual” women deal with attractive men, and you don’t hear them begging guys to put their shirts on at the beach. It’s not socially acceptable for women’s sex drives to show.

I do find it disturbing and creepy and predatory that guys “struggle” so much around women who wear certain clothes. I find it disturbing that that’s normalized as healthy and natural. I don’t feel safe around men who can’t look at my body and engage with me as a human, regardless of what I’m wearing. I don’t feel comfortable around men who are battling not to lust after me.

And I don’t feel that I can control whether I “trigger” that battle or not by my clothing choices. How am I supposed to know what level of dress or undress is “comfortable” for any particular man? Guys will often say, “Oh, I’m not one of those guys who thinks women should dress like frumps. I’m not saying women shouldn’t wear pants or above the knee skirts or tank tops — I can handle those.”

But you know what? Some guys apparently can’t handle pants or above the knee skirts and tank tops. Some guys are more turned on by women in skirts. They’ve told me this to my face.

So what’s “normal”? Is it normal for a guy to struggle when he sees a woman in jeans, or only when she’s wearing a short skirt? Is it normal for a guy to struggle when she’s wearing a one-piece bathing suit and shorts, or only when she’s wearing a bikini? Is there an all-male council who has decided what’s “normal” for a guy to struggle with, and what’s creepy? Because I keep hearing mixed messages from men about what turns them on and what’s modest, and it makes me think the problem isn’t with what women wear but with what men can’t handle.

I think “normal” is a guy being able to interact with a woman comfortably, regardless of what she’s wearing, without waging a battle for his soul. Period. I will not accommodate any other male normal.

Moderator’s Note: This is stirring up a great conversation! In order to keep this a great conversation, I’m going to start deleting comments that make derogatory remarks or personal attacks against others who disagree. Be feisty but gracious!

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1,022 thoughts on “I Don’t Accommodate Uncontrolled Men

  1. jesusfreak155

    Good evening (It is evening here in Nigeria). The article is superb, but i just want to clarify something: Is the attitude here one of ‘I can dress however i want, so deal with your depraved mind’? If it is, then i think that it may not be the best. Paul speaks about this matter, but with something even more innocent: eating meat. I think the principle to apply here is that same. I am a guy, and will not presume to speak for women, but I would feel a lot better knowing my sisters in Christ were considerate of me while picking out their dresses. I have no issues with the women outside Christ, but I like to think that my sister are being as helpful as is reasonable in taking away the occasion to be tempted.

    Here is an illustration: For a while, I was privileged to teach regularly at a student’s fellowship where the congregation sat on overflows that rose up, such that the seats behind were the highest, and those in front, the lowest. The knees of the person behind you would bump your head occasionally if you were sitting down. It could be extremely distracting as a teacher to, while looking at the congregation, see a very short skirt because it would be from a debilitating perspective. Same for someone who innocently tries to look back during the service and encounters what is larger than him. Am i saying that it will necessarily descend to lust? No. But it is a temptation. My argument is to refrain, as much as is within our power, to not be an ‘occasion for sin’ or a ‘temptation’ to our brothers and sisters. if we know that sin is so damning, why take the risk with your brother?

    Liked by 2 people

  2. Sarah

    I hear you… but I am sitting here Scratching my head. Society and socialization changes. Modesty certainly isn’t a new concept, neither is personal responsibility. What does God say about the subject in His Word? I see little of that in this post. If modesty is a commanded in the Bible how can we take that lightly. God doesn’t speak just to hear Himself. The laws and boundaries He gives are not vindictive in nature but rather protective. So, let’s talk about that. If God commands it…..then how are we to view that?

    Liked by 1 person

      • George

        Yes but we are fallen creatures. As Christians we must understand that concept. God calls us to respect our bodies because they are temples of the Holy Spirit. I am not saying wear a sack over. But there is a way to dress modestly but also beautifully.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Catherine

        According to TOB, it is the human body that most reveals the divine mystery of God. Thus it is the greatest sin to misuse the body and it’s beauty in a selfish way, but it is the greatest virtue to give it in selfless love. When Adam and Eve first looked at each other’s naked bodies, they did not struggle against lust. They saw the body as it was meant to be seen – a beautiful sign of God’s love. If only everyone did the same.

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    • Kristen R. Rosser

      Actually, you know, the verses commonly used on the subject of modesty in the church, are actually about not showing off wealth (braided hair that could only be worn if you had servants to braid it, or gold and jewels) in front of your poorer brothers and sisters. Let’s face it, everybody back then wore robes, so the issue of cleavage and thighs didn’t really come up. So the Bible’s teaching about modesty is actually not a teaching about modesty as defined today. On that issue, other than telling the man not to look at a woman with INTENT to lust (that’s the meaning in the original Greek; it’s not just about feelings of attraction), the Bible is silent. In short, the responsibility for lust rests solely on the one doing the lusting.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Sam

      When God’s word refers to modesty, it is usually referring to modesty of heart and intention (not seeking to be seen and praised by people). The references to modest clothing are usually talking about not wearing expensive clothing (again to be noticed and praised). I’m sure if a woman is wearing revealing clothing because she wants to be noticed, that would also fall under the definition of immodesty, but modesty is a personal thing that begins in the heart and intentions of a person, and it should never be taught that men can’t control themselves when women don’t cover their “tempting” bodies. That is harmful to both women and men. The word of God teaches personal responsibility. It is our responsibility to look at our hearts and pray for change where it is needed.

      Like

  3. gabriellerivas

    Read your post and I agree that we should all treat each other the same no matter what we are wearing because it’s our choice. I am curious to know what you think of people like Kim Kardashian or Amber Rose who post naked photos of themselves. I do believe women should have no problem with showing they their body but is there a line and if there is when is it crossed? I’m just curious of your opinion and maybe others.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Bailey Steger

      Honestly, I don’t have many thoughts on this since I don’t keep up with a lot of pop culture! It would depend on their motivation for posing naked. Do they feel pressured to present themselves sexually? Are they trying to promote body consciousness? Are they considering these photos art?

      Liked by 1 person

  4. mgdavisblog

    I’m a woman and I think men who whine about the male struggle never want to grow up and take responsibility for their self-control. On the other hand, a few years ago women didn’t show as much as they do now. In our present socialization, it seems the “fashion” is to show as much as one possibly can without getting arrested. Sometimes even I flinch from embarrassment for the girl who bends over in a skirt so short I fear what I’m going to see. My husband tells me he goes into places of business where women should dress professionally, and he has to avert his eyes while talking to the female because her boobs are about to jump out of her shirt. I think a lot of women out there want men to look at them and lust, and then complain about it.

    Liked by 2 people

  5. thutchicady

    I really appreciate what you have said here! I am 5 ft tall and busty and I design and sew my own clothes. I keep things covered modestly. But being short if people walk up on me they will look right down my shirt. I found this hard to believe, from both sexes. And very frustrating, due to a turtleneck being the only total coverage. Thank you so much!!

    Liked by 1 person

  6. Joel

    “I don’t feel comfortable around men who are battling not to lust after me.” Wow. This coupled with “I don’t have any sympathy”, etc. The tone is so devoid of empathy and, it seems, an effort to understand the other side. It villifies (and actually, creepifies) even a man’s “private struggle”, a phrase which I’m sure you hate, though it’s hard to understand why. One could almost interpret this piece as “if a man is strongly attracted to a woman, he’s a creep.” Gah!

    “I’m going to stand up and look that man in the eye and tell him that his inability to control himself is not normal, healthy, or God-given, and I have no sympathy for his struggles.” That would be both callous and at least somewhat inaccurate, if all we’re talking about is a man’s struggle to not lust. (Not words or actions a la harassment.)

    We are always, always influenced by environment. If someone walks down a busy sidewalk naked, people will be distracted. The only question is where you draw the line. And I think people can be considerate and compassionate in thinking about where this line should be.*

    “Uncontrolled” men are those who *do* or *say* unacceptable things. Not those who face up to their lust (whether for someone in a tunic, or a bikini) and find themselves distracted. But you seem happy to shame them and throw them under the bus.

    *I do agree with that socialization hugely impacts how men view women, and I have wondered what the ideal society would look like on this question. My sense that “some clothing = good” may be very socialized and even wrong-headed. Maybe we should allow public nudity (this isn’t sarcasm). Or even just model some nonchalance for younger people when someone gorgeous and almost-naked walks by…

    I actually recall a remarkable article by Adbusters years ago – it was from a guy who observed that for six months, he had not wanted sex with anyone but his wife. I believe they had been living in a culture where women regularly go topless, and he found that without the added manipulation of ad-culture, his desires simplified and were more naturally focused on his life partner. I’m not sure what the answer is, but it was a very thought-provoking piece. And for the record, I have at times felt lots of lust for someone fully-clothed, and very little for someone in a bikini.

    Like

  7. Morpheus

    Incoming male opinion alert!
    Totally agree with the article. It is a socialisation and education issue. I recognise in my own childhood a rather unhealthy education around girls and sexuality (but it was a long time ago when attitudes were different). But thankfully I have grown out of it.
    Thankfully, these days I can in fact appreciate the beauty of a shapely and overexposed woman and not feel the need to do anything more than smile. I realise that a woman is not defined by her looks but something my deeper and more permanent. It is that part of her I am more interested in interacting with. I never compliment a woman on her looks – only on her character and this I believe is especially important for young girls who grow up with the idea that their value is in their appearance. If that is not setting them up for a life of depression I don’t know what is.
    In the business world, there is a typical dress standard. Excessive cleavage for example in this environment may be largely inappropriate and detract from the business at hand.
    Beauty is a wonderful thing. But it can also be a distraction which can have negative and unintended consequences if presented in the wrong context. I recall going to one business meeting once where the convener requested men wear suits and ladies wear something which helps others to look them in the eyes – presumably because we were there to discuss business and not cleavage.
    But absolutely, men who struggle to control themselves in the presence of a beautiful woman (fully covered or otherwise) is a sign of a sick society which has failed to socialise and educate men appropriately.

    Liked by 1 person

  8. Shawn Meyer

    I think this article reflects a lot of immaturity and selfishness. I’m sad that a Christian woman would have this perspective. What Christian would say to someone, “I have no sympathy for your struggles” and pledge not to accommodate others who want to walk in obedience to Christ? There is nothing remotely biblical about this woman’s perspective; it is thoroughly worldly.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Aubrie

      I think the point here is saying “I have no sympathy for your own lack of control that is causing you to struggle. These men are not dealing with God-given struggles, they are dealing with a struggle that they have been told is not something that’s should take control of and that they are responsible for. The author is saying no. That they need to take control and responsibility for their own thoughts and actions and not blame their own thoughts on the woman they are looking at. It’s like saying, “I shot him because he made me angry.” I have no sympathy for that man who blames his own bad thoughts and actions on others.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Bailey Steger

        Yes, Aubrie, exactly!! Thank you for summing my thoughts up so succinctly. I have great compassion for a man struggling with a real problem that he owns up to FULLY without blaming others, but not for the man I described and Aubrie further described.

        Like

    • Jessica

      I think another way of saying it would be, “I can not take responsibility for your struggle, you need to do that!” She makes a valid point in this article that it is nearly impossible to accommodate and prevent the struggles of all men, and it is difficult to figure out where the line of acceptability lies. I went to a conservative university where a dress code was followed (no sleeveless shirts, shorts and skirts come close the knee, no skin tight clothes, etc…) and I still witnessed occasions of young men trying to shift blame for their own lustful thoughts and behaviors to young women for the way they were dressed. One famously derided editorial to the school newspaper complained about girls carrying their books in messenger style bags that cut across the body because the drew attention to the breasts. The problem was with a message to young men that they were not responsible for their own lustful thoughts.

      Liked by 2 people

  9. Jeff H. Ulrich

    Take the debate off the table about the morality of modesty. Being sensible about personal security should be a woman’s core concern. Someone here said, “dangerous men are out there.” More so than ever, this is true. I taught my daughter that she would be a fool who plays with fire if she is not mindful of how she dresses, where she is going, who she is with, and all other safety factors. When I travel to work at 7am on the trails and see the occasional female jogger running alone in an isolated wooded area, I must wonder what she thinks would happen if a predator targeted her. Martial arts and mace are not substitutes for using good common sense to keep from harm’s way in the first place. Women, do not be the bait, put yourself on the hook, and then expect your abilities — including one to win a debate here with rational minds — would mean much when you’re up against someone who is determined to use his strength and element of surprise to have you as his prey. You could certainly take measures to blend in and avoid the risk of being attacked and STILL be at a disadvantage in a bad situation but, please daughters, … be smart! You are too special to become a victim, and I almost literally get sick in my stomach when I hear on the news that one of you has been raped and killed. Be wise and secure to live another day.

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    • Lea

      ” Being sensible about personal security should be a woman’s core concern. ”

      You are not the first man to come in and try to ‘help’ by saying this.

      The problem is, safety has nothing to do with clothing. Watch where you’re going, situational awareness, self defense training, etc. All of that is part of every day risk management.

      If you are hoping for the length of your skirt to save you from a predator you will be in serious trouble. ‘Dress ‘modestly’ for safety’ is bad advice.

      Liked by 1 person

      • stephonix

        Also, that thought process puts SOLE responsibility on women not to get assaulted. “You are too special to become a victim” implies we have any control over how men think and react.

        The bottom line is…we don’t. Sure, I can make sure I am covered up, but I promise you, that in no way deters someone from assulting me. When you say “do not be the bait” and that logical argument wouldn’t deter someone intent on assault. To that I say, yes. Agreed. Logic does not deter. And if logic doesn’t, why would a longer skirt, or a frumpy sweatshirt, or no makeup?

        Can you imagine every morning when you’re deciding to put on clothes that you have to take into consideration the shirt you’re wearing could cause someone to assault you? Can you imagine trying to stay healthy and active, but not being able to workout alone for fear of assault? It gets overwhelming and frustrating and so so exhausting.

        It’s exhausting to know that if we get assaulted, we get blamed.

        Like

    • Bethany

      You do know that most perpetrators of rape and sexual assault knew their victims and that the ‘stranger in the bushes’ idea isn’t often reality, right?

      There are lots of comments here from women who’ve been assaulted, catcalled etc while dressed perfectly modestly. I’ve personally never been catcalled (which most women will agree is an alarming thing) when dressed ‘immodestly’…but it’s happened several times when I’ve been wearing knee-length baggy cargo shorts, and once when I was wearing a suit for a job interview. Guess I just ‘baited the hook’ too much for those men to resist!

      You know what makes me sick to my stomach? Every news story I hear about women who’ve been battered or killed by their partner or ex-partner. Modest clothing and ‘common sense’ would have prevented almost exactly none of those crimes.

      As I wrote in a previous comment, most women ARE concerned about their personal safety. Every ‘risky’ choice that I make is weighed carefully: Is it worthwhile to go to the pool at night? Walk back alone to my car? Should I walk on the lighted side of the street, or not? Hood up so that my long hair can’t identify me as a woman? Or hood down so that I can hear a potential attacker coming?
      It’s very easy for a man to look at a woman’s choices and say ‘why weren’t you just more careful’. What you fail to see is the myriad of choices that she has made in her life that do revolve around protecting herself from men.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Jeff H. Ulrich

        I did not “fail to see” or not account for anything in my comment. And I well enough expressed a heartfelt care and concern for my fellow human being. I would be a failure as a human being to not draw upon my long experience in this life and then share my perspective that, by taking into account all factors stated between you and I, women are being (here is that word I used) “wise” when they apply that certain attire at the wrong places and at the wrong times increases their chances of becoming victims. I am not a woman, but I happen to be a man with the vulnerability of a certain handicap. And my handicap necessitates that I travel via means that regularly bring me into harm’s way. With years of trial and error (“error” meaning disaster), I learned very well that how I carry myself AND dress affects how well I blend in, and these measures collectively act as deterrents when stealth is not possible. I do not need statistics to know that, not just men but, women who would be assailants think twice when the sum of it all (including attire) represents to them less opportunity, value, and perhaps even more trouble than a criminal act is worth. I understand and respect a woman’s desire for a world where attire is not a factor for personal safety in certain places; I could relate as someone who has often wished that people would not underestimate other people because of apparent flaws. But I would not allow my desire for absolute social acceptance to override my sense to apply every measure where it makes sense to do so. And for the record, I am someone who totally gets and accepts the healthy need of a woman to feel good about how she looks and to hold her head high at all times (I want no less for my daughter); I have often prayed for a world where, at all times, we could all feel so good and accepted. Fortunately, we are not in a state of anarchy that would compel us, in most places, to cover up and hide in the shadows; my daughter and I are not looking forward to winter when we must again store away our shorts and T-shirts.

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      • Lea

        “And I well enough expressed a heartfelt care and concern for my fellow human being.”

        You can care and still be completely wrong, Jeff.

        “I would be a failure as a human being to not draw upon my long experience in this life and then share my perspective”

        None of which has been spent as a woman looking to protect herself, and seeing which situations were dangerous. Maybe you should listen to other people’s perspective as well! Dressing to disguise a handicap would be more analogous to dressing as a pretend boy than being modest. Your personal situation has nothing to do with modesty!

        Predators tend to go for easy targets. Make yourself a hard target by paying attention. Clothes make little difference or where they do it’s more about easy of removal than modesty, so long skirts are easy, tight pants are hard.

        Like

    • Aubrie

      If I as a woman make all my decisions based on fear, it won’t be long till I do nothing at all and never leave my house. I am not out after 5 in the winter because it’s dark, I don’t go to any social activities because someone might show up I don’t know and roofie my drink, I can’t pump my own gas, I can’t grocery shop alone, I can’t date or walk my dog. Women should not have to live in fear. There is a difference between being smart and letting fear dictate your choices. I choose the first because otherwise, what am I living for?

      Like

      • Jeff H. Ulrich

        I never suggested that someone be afraid. All that I urge one to do is to be wise. Fear actually impairs wisdom to the degree that foolishness is at hand. To not take precautions for the sake of taking pride in one’s fearlessness is in itself foolishness. Pride goes before a fall, and fools rush in where angels fear to tread.

        Like

  10. Shannon Morgan

    Hi! I just went on a rant on Facebook. I refence this blog post, and I completely agree with you. Im looking for scholars who study these issues that have scholarly articles we can use as a reference. Please take a moment to read my post. Thank you!

    Liked by 1 person

    • Justin

      Contempt might breed Contempt, but so does selfishness breed selfishness. Additionally, justifying immodesty by giving zero scriptural basis to you argument ironically breeds contempt for God and truth while enabling poor decisions.

      You’re heartless and cruel if you think you can dress indecently and think men should control themselves while knowing full well how you dress will elicit a response. There is no concern for you male equals. Just a clear reduction of how men operate which you blindly advocate. It’s like looking at the sun and think it would blind me, yet still looking at it.

      You’re a daft feminist.

      Like

  11. trlwnc

    ftnd.org

    The problem isn’t the person, it’s the education. This is why I don’t watch most television. It’s pornography glorified.

    Like

  12. Enoch

    I worked with juvenile sex offenders for several years. The home where I worked tried very hard to remove anything that could be considered sexual, which had an interesting effect. It made everything sexual. I was talking with one of the residents after he left the facility, and he told me that while he was there he had to masterbate every day. After he left, he had not needed to once. Statistically rapes are less common in nudest colonies, not because men there are not attracted to women, but because the woman’s body is no longer a sex object. Extreme modesty teaches that the body is an object to ogle.

    Like

  13. Nothing to see here

    Honest question: how do you feel about a man who engages with you as a full human being without any expression or even indication of discomfort but then masturbates to the thought of you at night?

    Like

  14. Andrew

    Hmmmm…may I suggest something else as this article has admittedly bothered me and has taken a very firm view without much Scripture to justify it…

    To Christian men, self-control is a fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22) and avoiding sexual immorality is an outworking of the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit (1 Thessalonians 4:3-5). Christ commands that to even lust after a woman who is not our wife is to commit adultery and this adultery is first and foremost a sin against God, not the wife, and is why it applies even to unmarried men (Matthew 5: 27-28). So we must take every thought captive and make it obedient unto Christ (2 Corinthians 10:5) as single men, as dating or engaged men, and as married men.

    To Christian women, may I suggest something: if Christ glorified God (John 13:31) and we should live in Him (Colossians 2:6), be conform to His image (Romans 8:28), be ambassadors of Him (2 Corinthians 5:20), and be disciples of Him (Luke 9:23), then in all things we do we must first and foremost seek to glorify God (1 Corinthians 10:31). Translating that to this topic and this article in particular, my question is this: what is your motivation for wearing that outfit? What is your motivation for having your cleavage shown? Is it for men and women to cast eyes on you or is it to glorify God? Would you be showing off that cleavage if you would walk with Jesus down the street? Would you want Jesus to look at your cleavage and note how attractive you are (as this article indirectly seems to suggest is ok)? Or would you wear an outfit that glorified Him? I hope the answer is clear. Of course cleavage may be on the other end of the spectrum (though it is used in the subtitle of this article so I’m not out of line in using this to illustrate my point), but the principle is this: our clothing should seek to glorify God.

    We are all required to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). So there is a duty on both of us and the outworking of it – in this case for sexual immorality – should be towards the edification of all believers.

    Like

    • Bailey Steger

      I think you’re making a false dichotomy between dressing attractively and glorifying God, and a false equivalency between appreciating attractiveness/experiencing attraction and lusting after a woman.

      Like

  15. Barb

    The argument you make is towards the nature of men – you say he’s not as sexual as we let him be. Your evidence, one husband and a lot of conjecture. Men experience sexuality very different from you and you’ve only reached out to try to understand how that sexuality should be such that it is convenient for you, you haven’t begun to explore it in earnest.

    As one who experiences male sexuality, I can say you’re fairly off the mark as far as I’ve experienced. You think I wouldn’t like not to think about and evaluate every woman I see for sex? You think, nay hope, that somehow male sexuality has been socialized into them and you’re unwilling to explore any other ideas because it’s not convenient for you – I know it may be hard for you or anyone of my generation to fathom, but nature is not for our convenience and life isn’t fair. Nature has bread into many, but not all, men to want to have sex with as many women as possible and you’re not happy, so you seem to want to blame someone for this inconvenience and you’ve decided to throw it back at men. Almost like tantrum throwing, but you can’t change the fact that most men will interact with women comfortably… so they can ultimately have sex with them – nature proves you wrong.

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